There are a lot of different thoughts out there. Many different opinions on a myriad of topics ranging from abortion to global warming, religion to health care. I know that within the church, this is no different. Pre-, Post-, or A-millenial? Calvinism or Arminianism? Women pastors or not? Of course, I'm just touching the tip of the iceberg.
Everyone in the church seems to fall on one side or another with many of these issues (well, other than the pan-millenialists :) , of course), but many of those same people will say something along the lines of, "Well, we won't know the answer to (name that issue) until we get to heaven. This has been argued for a couple thousand years by many brilliant people, so I'm sure it won't be settled any time soon." While I agree with the last statement, that these issues won't be settled amongst ourselves any time soon, the statement is usually said to imply that there just isn't enough information to figure it all out. Or it's said because we're finite beings trying to understand an infinite God. And while these things may have a greater or lesser amount of truth to them, I think these are the furthest reasons from the main reason why these issues won't be settled amongst ourselves before we meet Him, and that reason can be summed up in one word...'sin.'
As humans, yes, we are finite, and yes, sometimes we don't have all the information we need to form rock-solid conclusions, but I think those things carry far less weight than the simple fact that we certainly are a sinful lot. Pride definitely will creep in when we bristle at the thought of being wrong, or others telling us we're wrong. We have a hard time having someone tell us that they think we're crazy for coming to some conclusion, even if they say it lovingly and in a way that's not condecending. On the other hand, sometimes we just feel the need to be right and look that way in front of others. We end up approaching many of these issues with our minds set on what we like, or what seems right to us, but not willing to hear someone that's thought about it more than us who would tell us to reconcider our position. And the lengths we will go to protect it! What about all the other things we'd simply rather be doing...I can't tell you how many people act as if they just don't want to exhaust their brain power to know God more. "We're not going to know the answer until we get to heaven, anyway" just becomes and excuse to not take the time to think.
Is it possible to begin looking at these things from a different perpective, one that desires to know God above all else, including our desire for looking good in front of others? Are we willing to be wrong or look wrong in front of people if it means that we'll know God better in the end? Are we willing to put forth the effort required to really think through the issues? I believe that there are answers to the vast majority of our questions/disputes in the church, and that God has given us all the information we need to know and understand the vast majority of them, including the issues that have been discussed for centuries. My only questions is, can we lay ourselves aside long enough to find out the answers?
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11 comments:
Ryan: "'We're not going to know the answer until we get to heaven, anyway' just becomes and excuse to not take the time to think."
That, my friend, is exactly what I've found to be true. It's not that they're trying to be wise or fair or reasonable. It's that they're not willing to think about it. You're right. We won't actually know this side of heaven, but that's not to suggest that we can't come to a reasonable conclusion ... because so many have. You're absolutely right. It's a statement that excuses not thinking about God's truth. I suspect it's motivated by a fear of "I may not be right in my thinking ... but I'm unwilling to allow that if I can avoid it."
If I properly view God's Word as a love letter from my Heavenly Father and I properly operated out of a heart of love for my Heavenly Father, I'd want to understand everything He has to tell me to the best of my ability. That may mean that something I now believe is wrong, but believing something wrong about my Father would be more intolerable to me than admitting that I could be wrong. And not thinking about His truth would be completely unacceptable to me. You're right, I think. In the cases of those who refuse to examine the issues (whatever they are), it's a problem of sin -- too lazy, too proud, or too self-righteous to find out the truth.
I fully agree that it is worthwhile and good to take the time to think some of these issues through. Myself, I even sometimes think it's fun.
But in order to talk them through, we have to be willing to talk AND to listen. "We," as in all of us. It doesn't help if I say, "YOU really need to listen to what I'm saying," if I'm not willing to listen to you, right? And vice versa.
What I've found, though, is that people are willing to talk only so long (even about difficult complex issues that have been debated for centuries), then we tend to lose our patience with the Other and want to cut off the conversation.
I've done it. I know it gets tiring and I know that we have limited time and energy. I understand that. And sometimes, we really have reached an end of things to say. I've explained my position repeatedly and "they" have explained their position repeatedly. At some point, I guess we do have to cut it off, just due to a lack of time in the real world.
But, in the meantime, we can answer questions, we can be patient and respectful and strive not to misrepresent the Other and we CAN discuss these issues without wanting to kill one another (which is what our ancestors tended to do - the Inquisition, anyone? The catholics killing the protestants and both of them killing the anabaptists?) I reckon we've made some progress.
I notice in your bio, Ryan, that you do music stuff. What sort of music are you playing? Is there some place we can hear your single?
My family and I are all into music, just as a hobby, and have done a little home recording just for fun. I think it's cool all the tools that are out there.
I was in a Christian band for the first ten years of my adult life (in the 1980s, basically) and things were much different then. My son has just started college and he's going to Middle Tennessee State U and he's studying their music production program.
So, all of that to say that I'm interested in the business and would love to hear more about what you do.
One question I have, about these sorts of conversations that may or may not happen online, is why so many conservatives screen their comments.
I have no way of knowing in the real world, but in my experience of the places I link to and visit regularly, it is the conservatives who do this and not the more progressive types. At least on an ongoing basis. (I and others have blocked my messages for a time when we were having a specific troll or spam problem - someone showing up and copying and pasting the same message dozens of times - but once the spammer goes away, the block comes off).
Why do you think that is?
The reason I ask is that I find that one little thing that is a real conversation-killer. It seems to be a way of maintaining control, which makes for an unlevel playing field. It seems to be a way of saying, "I don't trust what you have to say and I may well not print it," which, again, I think tends to squelch conversation rather than promote it.
Thoughts?
Dan,
Thanks for commenting. And I couldn't agree more that I think it's great fun! I love having my mind stretched to think outside of where my own thoughts have taken me. That doesn't change the fact, though, that it can be a real challenge to take myself out of the equation when getting in these discussions. We feel a personal attachment to our thoughts, and that makes it hard when someone challenges our thinking...even though they're saying, "I disagree with the idea," it can feel like they're saying, "I think you're stupid!" And you're right, we must be willing to listen as much, if not more so, than we speak.
As for why I moderate the comments on here, I can only speak for myself. This, being my blog, represents me, and even though commenters may think they represent themselves, what is said will still, in some respect, be a refection on myself. That being said, I can understand that it could feel like it's a bit of a conversation killer, but at the same time, I don't know who, at any given time, could come onto my blog and leave maliciously vulgar messages (which may sound ridiculous, but I know those to whom this has happened), and since I don't blog daily, I don't check things daily, and stuff like that could sit there forever. I guess my feeling is that if people want to know what's going on and keep up, they'll subscribe or check back often. That will also separate out the ones who truly care from the idiots who do stupid stuff just to be stupid. So I guess from my perspective, I do it just to make sure that everything on here in no way reflects poorly on myself and therefore my family, my church community, or my God. Sorry if that comes across as a lack of trust, but for me it's more about those I don't know than those, like you, who I know wouldn't do anything like that.
As for music, I've had a hand in a little bit of everything. I got my degree in Instrumental Music Education and taught band in a public school for a couple years. I then got out of that line of work, and now work full time for a music instrument dealer, visiting school band and orchestra directors as a sales representative.
On the side, I work as a mix engineer (I'm headed to the studio tonight, in fact). I'm entirely self taught with a lot of learning still to do, but I've become the go-to mix engineer for a local studio doing some rather large projects (Word Records is interested in signing the artist I'm mixing right now, so it's a pretty important album for all of us). I don't have the single I've written/recorded online (it was to my wife for our wedding four years ago), and I won't put it online because it was done prior to me starting in music production industry, so it doesn't sound great! Stuff that's more current (music I've been mixing) can currently be found at www.virb.com/ruffmixstudio. (Isn't this sad...I thought I knew how to hyperlink in comments, but I can't figure it out right now...sorry!)
The thing I've found the most frustrating has been learning the art of mixing. I, having a degree in music, already have a ton of the music knowledge, as well as the ear for doing this. However, the technical aspect is what I'm trying to grasp more fully, but finding someone that is willing to spend time teaching is not easy to find. The great mix engineers aren't just going to let someone sit in on a mix session, and I can't exactly go back to school with a full time job and a family, so I feel like I'm at a bit of a disadvantage there. I'm trying to network myself, but it's not easy. So, if you're son has any suggestions for me or knows of anyone willing to lend me an ear, I'd be more than happy chat with him. My contact info is on that virb page.
As to how to do a link, if you'll go to this page...
htmlcodetutorial.com, you will see right at the top of the page some html that includes the line "A HREF."
You use that format and, where you see "resumepage.html," you would plug in the url of whatever website you wish to link to, in your case here, "http://www.virb.com/ruffmixstudio," put that in the place of "resumepage.html." WITH quotation marks.
Then, where you see "my resume," you would type in whatever you want to actually SEE written.
So, by following that format, I can post...
virb.com
And I should have a link to your virb.com place.
Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.
I used to be really into the whole CCM world, that's what our band was (albeit a very bad one). I was a big fan of Randy Stonehill (who I believe may have been with Word for at least a while), Phil Keaggy, Larry Norman and Rich Mullins, and still dig those guys a bit.
Ryan, Stan has decided he does not wish to talk with me anymore.
If you are interested in continuing this conversation, I invite you to join me at my place at your convenience.
Or, we could do it here, if you prefer.
Peace.
Some questions and thoughts I think you and I have under discussion include:
I. What criteria do you have for determining what is and isn't literal in the Bible?
II. What does it mean to have "limited" free will?
III. Does God not "allow" some people to make moral choices of their own? Sometimes? Often? All the time for the lost?
IV. The notion of "limited" free will is just an unknown to me as to what it could POSSIBLY mean, in the real world. If you have any explanation at all of this, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.
V. We agree, don't we, that some of the Bible is imagery and that some ought to be taken more literally, yes? I've listed several things I take fairly literally, including...
1. Jesus said and meant, "Blessed are the poor."
2. Jesus said and meant, "Woe to you who are rich!"
3. James said, "Come now, you rich, weep and wail over your impending miseries... Behold, the wages you withheld from the workers who harvested your fields are crying aloud, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts."
4. James said, "You [rich folk] have condemned; you have murdered the righteous one; he offers you no resistance."
5. Leviticus tells us, "When you come into the land which I give you, then the land shall keep a Sabbath to the LORD"
6. Leviticus tells us, "When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not be so thorough that you reap the field to its very edge, nor shall you glean the stray ears of your grain. These things you shall leave for the poor and the alien. I, the LORD, am your God."
7. Jesus commanded us, "Do not take an oath at all... Let your yes be yes and your no be no."
8. Paul commanded us, "Don't worry about anything, but pray about everything."
9. Jesus commanded us, "turn the other cheek," and Paul expanded saying, "Overcome evil with good."
10. Paul says, "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink."
VI. Do YOU take these literally? If you don't (at least some of them), then would it be fair for me to accuse you of not respecting the Bible or of rejecting God's "obvious" teachings? Or ought we operate with a bit more grace in our dealings with one another?
For instance.
Dan,
Please grant me some leeway, as I don't have tons of time on my hands to respond as quickly as I have been. Also, I'm going to start a new post, so that this discussion will be more appropriately categorized. If you wouldn't mind shifting over there after I've posted it, I'd be grateful.
No problem, Ryan, no hurry. At your convenience.
Peace.